Mom from Joanna regarding Wales, spouse regarding Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth

Following the my personal report on the children off Llywelyn Fawr and you can Joanna and responses it obtained, I seemed again from genealogical profiles on the subject of Gwladus Ddu. While it’s genuine, because numerous genealogists mention, one on absence of special proof in some way, the fresh new identity of your own mom out-of Gwladus Ddu need to will always be ‘unknown’, I discovered no reason to change my achievement one to their own mother was Joanna rather than Tangwystyl.

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That after that resource on the subject of the pupils ‘s the after the conceptual on the ‘Kings and you will Queens from Britain’ an authoritative guide, compiled by Oxford College Drive, webpage 106:

‘Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth, b.1173, child of Iorwerth Drwyndwn (‘Flatnose’) and Marared, daughter from Madog ap Maredudd; acc. east Gwynedd 1195; married Joan, illegitimate daughter out-of King John, 1205; issue: Gruffudd (illegitimate), Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus, Margaret, Susanna; died 11 April 1240; buried: Aberconwy.’

To show it is not just me one believes very, let me quotation one genealogist Kula female who is a great enthusiast out of Sharon: “I’m very keen on Sharon Kay Penman’s books. As they aren’t purely biographical, Personally i think much warmer relying on her strive to ‘submit the newest blanks’ (because of the amount of look she without a doubt set in their own courses), than in in reality mentioning specific genealogical provide which i attended across the during my look (I am aware everyone find supply that way). In order to those who have not yet see their work, I would suggest they really extremely, specifically if you would like to get a getting for what lifetime is including 800 years ago.”

Their particular browse for ‘HBD’, ‘Drops new Shadow’ and you will ‘The newest Reckoning’, carried out until the introduction of the web based, is truly the

After the concerns posed of the Beth, Suzanne and you may Sandy in particular, I begin contrasting the newest name away from Joanna’s mommy (referred to hereafter, to have easier reference while the ‘Clemence’ perhaps not ‘Clementia’) courtesy an affair on in order to-be-king John. This step turned out to be more state-of-the-art than I would features envision you are able to! After powering right up of several blind alleys, mostly as a result of trying get together again the brand new chronology of 1 toward other, You will find paid about what employs. Really don’t point out that the thing i have written was decisive in just about any profile otherwise setting, additionally the truth is that we are likely to never be sure of their title.

(a) New illegitimate Joanna, daughter away from “Clemence,” are undoubtedly created out of wedlock –– as well as ended up of the Honorius III’s decree claiming their legitimate inside the April 1226, whether or not rather than prejudice into the queen or field of The united kingdomt (i.elizabeth., giving their own no-claim compared to that throne). The fresh decree, which was transcribed about new, unpublished Register of Honorius III (Reg. 13, fol. 122 ), claims inter alia one to “Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de soluta,” hence, I am advised, translates as “Queen John of The united kingdomt, when unmarried , fathered your of the a single woman.”

This means Joanna can have come born no afterwards than 1189 whenever John hitched Isabella regarding Gloucester. Their particular mother, “Clemence” was probably French or Norman, since the facts on the patent moves off John’s rule signifies that Joan are delivered away from Normandy to help you The united kingdomt from inside the December 1203, to prepare getting relationships so you’re able to Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (see less than). Joanna died when you look at the Feb 1237.

(b) John’s legitimate daughter Joan, by the Isabella off Angouleme (married to John in the 1200 at age 12!), came to be during the Gloucester to the 22 July 1210 (comprehend the Tewkesbury Annals from the Rolls Collection, vol. 36.i, p. 59; the fresh new Worcester Annals, ibid., vol. thirty-six.iv, p. 399; while the Rotuli Litterarum Patencium having John’s Leadership, pp. 124, 143). This is basically the Joan which next hitched Alexander II out of Scotland and you will she passed away in the 1238, particular weeks immediately following Joanna (this might account for some of the misunderstandings clear within a couple of female). She leftover not a problem by Alexander II.